Monday, June 18, 2012

Muttawa And Learning Disabilities

After my last post on the Saudi religious police aka muttawa, a friend of mine suggested I make a poll to see what people really thought them. Many it seems are afraid to express their disapproving thoughts on the moral cops publicly, even anonymously on blogs. Judging by the comments to the posts, I often get the impression that most people are very supportive of the concept of Hai'a in Saudi-Arabia and wish they will continue terrorizing advising people.

That's why I was very surprised to see the result of the poll I kept running for a few days on the blog. Here are the results:

Do you think the Saudi religious police should:
Continue operating as they are now: 11 votes (7%)
Continue but with complete reform:  36 votes (25%)
Be abolished altogether: 84 (58%)
Be granted more power and authority: 12 votes (8%)

Over half says good riddens to the muttawa. I was expecting the second option of complete reform to have the most votes and only a few to say they saw no need for the religious police whatsoever. Of course this is a poll everyone around the world can answer. If asked from Saudis only I bet the result would be different. But still interesting to see. Most hilarious I thought was how many said Hai'a should be granted more power, I mean seriously? Someone must have clicked on that just as a joke, right?

More on Hai'a matters, the new boss Al-Sheikh commented on the "nail polish girl" incident which happened a few weeks ago in Hayat Mall. Again, we can see from the comments to my post and all other forums how the public opinion was mostly condemning this woman. Surprisingly and sadly, many of those negative judgmental comments were coming in from women, fellow Muslims calling her the worst of names.

In the past when there's been incidents in the news (and there has been MANY) of Hai'a officers harassing women, the official response has been either completely lacking or then supportive of the officers. This time around was different though, and you can read what Al Sheikh had to say in full here: 
"The way the commission member behaved was not right, even if the girl had gone too far. He should have offered her advice and left instead of arguing with her and causing the situation to escalate.”
I wonder what all those evil tongues have to say now? Al Sheikh is clearly condemning the actions of his field officer. This was not the first time he said the muttawa should be lenient toward citizens and "kindly remind or give advice, then leave". He was even moved to tears when talking about the issue.

This might be a good indication that change would really be around the corner for the religious cops. Ahmed at Saudi Jeans had this to say about it:

Despite their leader's appeals and demands for a more lenient, friendly approach, it seems the field officers are either not listening, not registering or blatantly disobeying the orders.
I wrote about how one of my friends had an incident at the Riyadh IKEA with two Hai'a officers, ending in a shopping cart tug-of-war between her and one of the muttawa. Just after I wrote that post I saw this very same lady two times. On both occasions we went out for some shopping and she was again harassed.
For this woman and many others this is an almost every-time occurrence when they go out shopping, to be attacked by vicious muttawa.

The first incident happened at Diira souq in the old area of Riyadh, close by to the infamous chop-chop square. My friends were walking ahead of me pushing the stroller and a muttawa approached them aggressively, loudly shouting "cover your head, you are in Saudi-Arabia", as if they had not noticed that little detail. He did not just say it once, but three times and aggressively, without an ounce of kindness or leniency in his tone of voice. The officer pointed his finger at them and I snapped an epic pic of this very moment.
This Hai'a guy was in a hurry to go check that all the shops were closed for prayer and moved along.
A few days after that we were in Riyadh Gallery and spotted a pair of muttawa patrolling the mall. My friend and I separated from each other for a while and when I called her, she had been forced to leave the mall because those very same religious men had actually harassed her so bad she was compelled to leave.

Later I saw them at H&M checking that the newly appointed female cashiers were not working anymore. Funny how religious police are demanding something which is now mandated by law to end, that female sales personnel need to be present where women's lingerie, make-up etc is being sold. Just because the muttawa officers have come to the conclusion women shouldn't be working there (or anywhere in public), they think they have the right to actually go AGAINST the law and ban the women from working.

At another H&M in Granada mall I was glad to see the Saudi women and men working side by side in harmony, at least on that day. And guess what? The world didn't come to an end. In fact, it continued like it normally does all over the world where women work in such positions. Here's a quick snapshot of this historical moment:
So is there really a need for a commission whose members seem to enforce the law quite randomly, according to how they've interpreted religion in their own minds, not necessarily by what's been mandated or requested by their leader? Why is there seemingly no change to the rude behavior of the field officers despite the pleads from their chief? 
Some food for thought from Saudi Jeans article: "the Commission employs 4389 men, 60% of these employees do not have a college degree, and half of those did not even finish high school. It's safe to assume that most of them are field officers, the ones you see in malls and patrolling the streets"

In other words, every third muttawa out there has not even finished high school. How on earth are these people allowed to make citizen arrests based on erm..what qualifications or education actually? Will they ever learn from their mistakes?

The only hope I see is that Al-Sheikh is serious about reforming the CPVPV, but how is he going to achieve any kind of change in his ranks when the field officers seem to stubbornly ignore him? Seems very complicated, if not almost impossible. As the saying goes, if you give a dog a bone, it's very hard to get it back without being bitten.


Unknown said...

This reminds me of the first time I went to the KSA. My friends scarred the crap out of me about the Hai'a and on my first day in Mecca one of them approached me while I was shopping in a store and said "Assalamou Alaikom", LOL, from the terror I ended up with this response "Asif(sorry)". XD

Anyway, I would like to conserve my opinion to myself, but I would say, if a reform is underway, then it should be a major one with new policies and laws.

Nauman Khan said...

i want to give it a different angle, u knw every country is independent to have its own rules, coz if they can't have then they r not free, now all foreigners know what r the rules to live in KSA but still they try to bypass them somehow, y?

i give u an example, all western 1st world countries have traffic rules, now we expect those civilized people to follow those rules by themselves but unfortunately all of them don't and thus there is a Traffic Police but interestingly nobody raises a poll that should there b traffic police or not, right?

Similarly, there are some rules in place in KSA, everyone is expected to follow them but many of us don't so there is Mutawa Police

u knw y there is a conflict in the above 2 thinkings? coz we think traffic police is doing the right thing, protecting us from accidents and we don't believe mutawa police is doing the right thing coz from what they r trying to protect us, we don't believe in it.

and for exceptions, there r bad traffic policemen as well, taking bribes or punishing u even when it was not ur fault, similar is the case with mutawa police

Start following rules and Mutawas wont have anything to do and they would automatically disappear

Anonymous said...

Why does your friend continue to go out without covering her head when she aware of the possibility that she'll be harassed?

Your point is clear, but I'm just wondering why would someone put themselves through such a hardship intentionally.

And how do you feel about being a witness to your friend's experience? Besides photographing them in such situations, why don't you step up and say something?

You blog, but that's like hiding behind a tree yelling at someone to stop misbehaving. I mean, the finger nail polish lady stood up for herself. Even going so far as to record what was happening to her. She didn't have a "friend" do it for her.

Are you setting your "friends" up for your own benefit (i.e. some Best Blogger award)?

Also, one having an education doesn't mean they're compassionate. Education doesn't automatically instill manners within an indiviidual. So to make fun of the lack of educated Ha'i is obsurd. Those who are ill mannered are simply ill mannered.

What are you doing to bring about a change?

I notice that anytime someone disagrees with you, you consider it disrespectfull. Either you attempt to blast the person or you don't post their comments.

You have an accountability to tell the truth, also.

Lujain said...

As Salamu Alaykum, I hope you'll post my comment because it seems like you don't post the ones you don't like anyways;
About the Hai'a, you should know as a muslim that muslim authorities in a muslim country have to set up a program or people to make sure there is no fitna and public sins in their land: "You are the best community ever brought forth for mankind (in that) you command the proper and forbid the improper and believe in God." (3:110)

"Let there among you be a group that summon to all that is beneficial commands what is proper and forbids what is improper; they are the ones who will prosper." (3:104)

"Believing men and believing women are protecting friends of one another; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; they perform salat and give zakat..." (9:71)

"(Believers) who repent, serve and glorify God...command the proper and forbid the improper..." (9:112)

"(Luqman said to his son:) O my son: Establish regular prayer, command the proper and forbid the improper and bear with patience and steadfastness whatever difficulties you have to face (as a result)." (31:17)

It is an order from Allah, and you should accept every aspect of the Quran, 'Aqida and Fiqh when you're a muslim. Of course they have zeallous agents who go overboard, of course they sometimes take wrong decisions, they're humans! It doesn't mean I condone it, in the contrary I condamn those behaviors, Giving a nasiha to your muslim brother/sister is an art.

But you seem to keep criticizing their very existence all the times, have you thought about the good sides of having them? Have you thought about not having them at all, Do you want to have the Holy Land turn out like Dubai or Beyrouth? Or a western place since so many people think it is only way to live as a civilized people.

Besides you say: First;"a muttawa approached them aggressively, loudly shouting "cover your head, you are in Saudi-Arabia" Well sorry to tell you that but he was right! As a muslim you should know it. She is in muslim country where everyone is covered and she comes with fitna? He also have the right to tell her that.And yes men are supposed to lower their gaze, but for the first look they unintentionaly have, it's her fault to tempt them.
Second;Women Have the right to work and it's again a grave mistake from the muttawas to think they can force them out of it BUT "At another H&M in Granada mall I was glad to see the Saudi women and men working side by side in harmony, at least on that day. And guess what? The world didn't come to an end." The world didn't come to an end? Who told you it would? Allah never said He'd punish us just here, what if the world continues running by the permission of Allah, does it mean everyone is doing the right halal thing right now? Do you think the world stops everytime someone sins? And men and women working harmonously together, yeah I believe in it, o some halal extent which is the case there, but going all the way to promoting mixity as it was natural, well then sister you need to read the life of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and get the lessons about his relationships towards his sisters in Islam.

Third; "So is there really a need for a commission?" I am glad it is there, I'll be sad everytime they do something wrong but I am glad they're still there! Doctors commit medical errors all the time in the world, people die of it, but does it mean you're gonna ban any doctors in the country or refuse to see any doctor for the rest of your life?
Fourth; Yes true, those young muttawas need A LOT of education in order to continue doing it, it takes a LOT of islamic knowledge and good beahvior (deen and akhlaq) to do it.

I hope you get my points instead of answering to something else later.

Anonymous said...

Two weeks ago I was with a friend in Promod in Riyadh Gallery, and the muttawa came inside to tell us "cover your hair, you are in saudi Arabia". And waited till we obeyed. I've been living here altogether almost ten years. She's been here for almost five years. For eight of those ten years I covered, and the last two years I decided to uncover, as I get treated better overall from sales staff and other people, and there is no assumption that I'm the maid. But that is another story! It's a terrible feeling when they shout at one to cover. Lately, I cover as necessary. I've even been shouted at, to cover, getting into the car with my husband in the parking lot at Hayat Mall!

Anonymous said...

Hi Laylah,
I've been a follower of your blog for quite a time now. I am a 63 old well travelled lady from Belgium and happens to live part of the year in India since 2005. I feel you are a pretty bold and courageous young woman to have chosen to link your life to a Saudian guy and make the kingdom the country of your life. Laylah, if changes for the better should ever happened in your adopted county, it should be only thanks to the women as the guys there will never initiate it : there would be too much for them to loose in the process.
My question is : will these changes ever happened in a muslim country where the sharia is the rule ?
I doubt it !
I also wanted you to click on the link below and see what recently happened to one of your muslim sisters who defied the talibans : they killed her body but couldn't silence her voice !
Laylah, you already have a daughter ...
Tell me what kind of life do you wish for her ?
A child needs roots but also wings ...
In my opinion, she'll never grow wings in KSA and I wonder how yourself might have accepted to have yours cut ! Luckily, you are still able to escape to lovely Finland to breath the air of freedom and gender equality !

Anonymous said...

Very interesting to read how things are going in Saudi-Arabia. Personal opinion of the muttawa seems like a law to them, unfortunately. In the hadith 3766 of Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith, it's mentioned that anger is from the devil. So shouting to women and being angry is sinful too..

Whyhitawoman? said...

I am not sure where to post it, but I think it deserves some attention. I have heard three stories now of women walking outside with other women or alone. This morning one of my colleagues at work ignored someone harassing her on the way to work. She was walking with another friend. The person drove around again and tried to hit her with the car.

Another story, a teacher at work was walking to work and someone harassed her. He hit her with the car and broke her arm.

Another time a lady at work was hit by a car. She had to fight to get something done.

I am wondering is this common in Saudi? Are women really this unsafe that men harass them and if they ignore them they try to run them over?

Unknown said...

With all do respect Lujain, I believe that this Hai'a created more fitna. Also, as a Muslim you don't need "Muslim" police to correct your behavior. As a Muslim, you should be aware of those by yourself and know that Allah is the ONLY authority that can pass judgement.

I can't argue with the verses that you posted here from the Holy book, but I would like to ask you to double check the true meaning of those "aayas" cause I believe that they are not meant for this kind of situation.

The comment about Dubai, I will let that pass since my opinion will be bias ... but I have one thing to say to. I am sure that you are a person of good faith, but I can assure you that there is corruption in every land, whether it was Meca or Tel Aviv .... these things are normal, you always have the bad and good in every nation, culture, land ... it has nothing to do with religion. Just cause the public image is clean and religious doesn't mean it is truly like that. I know cause I went to a few places/parties in the kingdom that was anything but religious (DJ's for instance) so this doesn't mean that the whole country is corrupt. Same goes for the places that you mentioned, just cause there is a club or a bar there doesn't mean that every man is a horny drunk and every woman is a stripper. In places like Dubai, Beirut, Cairo, even the West, etc ... you have mosques and you have clubs, now wherever you choose to go will be your call and the only entity that can pass judgement in this case would be Allah and not Mutawaa's.

Regarding the covering up thing, Allah instructed his prophet (PBUH) to not impose religion on anyone. Everyone was free to choose to become a Muslim or not. For instance, Jews and Muslim lived along side by side in Madina once. The prophet offered them complete freedom of religion practice and living even when he got beaten and insulted (like what happened in Tayif). Forcing a hijab on a person is highly against this.

I would also like to ask you to brush up on your knowledge about working in a "mixed" gender environment during the prophet era. There is nothing that is against it. You had Um al Mo'meneen Khadijah working as businesswoman and dealing with many male clients and coworkers. In fact the Prophet (PBUH) and his uncle Abu Talib were both hired by her and worked along side of each other. Her career continues even when converting to Islam and there was nothing wrong with it. You also had women in combat who fought along side male soldiers like Umm ‘Umara (aka Nasiba bint Ka’b bin ‘Amr al-Khazrajiyya al-Ansariyya) as she fought in both battles of Uhud and al yamama.

Before I end this, I have to say
I don't find it wrong to have moral police, but Islam is a religion of moderation and what I experienced from the Hai'a when walking in the streets of Riyadh with my mom 3 years ago was extreme and some of my Saudi friends told me things just became worst now. I mean if you need guidance, you should not have mutawaas on the street, rather in mosques. I think that they should provide guidance to who seeks them and not force it on everyone.

Anonymous said...

Some people would die to live in saudi, or to just go to hajj one day..and you are constantly complaining..i wish you would look around and realise that there is a bigger picture to look at. Maybe if your situation was not as stable as it is terms of being able to live there with ure husband then i think you wouldn't be focusing on such ridiculous things as your girlfriend being told to put a piece of cloth over her hair.??? How hard could that be.
Why are people like you friend even in saudi? she obviously doesn't like the rules so why sure a deserving muslim would appreciate living in such an environment muttawa and all. They were convenient in driving away unwanted male harasses for woman but if its something you disapprove of then everyone should be against it.

bigstick1 said...

I find it odd that women state that Saudi is a safe place and they feel safe but you can be harassed, chased down, hit by cars, put in jail for defying your male guardian, can't drive, placed in fear of being jailed if your wear somethng wrong, etc.

However you feel safe. Call me silly but there is no safety in this only a potential of abuse, bodily harm, and possibly death. In addition, women are in constant fear of something. This is not healthy or a good environment for anyone.

راوية said...

Being A saudi woman, I am strongly offended by what you wrote. Traveling the world does not make you an expert in other cultures. Have you ever met a Saudi woman or a man and talked with them? Have you ever visited Saudi Arabia?
Every country has it's own problems but these days everyone choose to ignore their problems and point at others. It makes them feel better.
Everyone feels free to judge the way Saudi dress, talk, eat, worship.
Ask any Muslim about the misbehavior of other Muslims or about Taliban and they will tell you that it is wrong and that it is not Islam.
sitting on your computer, so far from KSA, and reading articles does not make you an expert about life here. And please, do not talk about sharia unless you have learned enough about it from muslims, and not from newspapers.

راوية said...

I do not understand why some are opposing women working in stores. I grew up in Dammam and every time I go to the old souq, there are woman working and selling and no problems occurred. I remember even in Mecca, I would always find women selling pigeon food and other things and never a problem. I am sure they still do today. But why keep opposing them working in department stores?!
I think what each store manager should do is frame the law on the wall for everyone to see and make it clear to those who oppose.
If they are worried about women being harassed by male customers or employees then they should punish those who dare to harass and not those who are just looking for work.
Your friend was very patient in ignoring that guy. I do not think he is Hai'a. Looks more like a common man. My reaction, if I were in her place, would be very different.
Truly: Sura 3 verse 158 "So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him]."

Mrs Gebu said...

Agreed with you all the way, whatever that has been set by God has nothing to argue with. They are just doing the job, I guess.

Affinity for Modesty said...

To Whyhitawoman, i guess there are bad guys everywhere,these cases are not exclusive to Saudi Arabia. Crimes of harassment against women are rampant both in the East aand west. It is tragic and needs a clear solution. Concerning the Hai'a,they need a reform and proper training but to abolish them altogether is not necessary. I do believe they do serve the public in most cases ie. preventing women being harassed by idiotic guys ( i witness personally), reminding Muslims to pray in time, curbing potential ma'siah etc.

Now personally,i hv never had a bad experience with the Hai'a but then again,i followed the rules of the land. When in i do wish we Muslims would stop measuring according to the western standards of what is acceptable.we do have our own way of living according to our religion and contrary to most misinformed and misunderstanding of many Islamic critics,Islam is suitable for all times and place. However,moderation is key as Allah dislikes extremism.

The Hai'a needs reformation and officers that practices excessiveness should be reprimanded. And the society as a whole should reflect upon themselves, to improve the community. kana bainana...thats just my two cents.

Anonymous said...

Hmm...Ive never seen a traffic police running after people for no reason.Neither I've seen them embarrassing women for lack of their driving skills or causing a huge scene for a small mistake.
See,in my believe there is a difference between teaching with an example or putting one down to make a point.These two things can both be done by someone in power,yet they end up in completely different results.
A person who was adviced and gained knowledge in a positive way will inchAllah leave the situation as a wiser person.
A person who feels she or he was humiliated and her-his voice wasn't heard will most probably inchAllah build anger and negative feelings towards the authority who got involved with this persons behavior.Maybe she-he was indeed ignorant about the rules and regulations but to educate our fellow humans should never start from the urge to make ourselves look better.

InchAllah we can all benefit from this conversation

Ms Rosenstare said...

Hyvää Juhannusta!!

Layla said...

I don't see any similarity in traffic police and religious police, sorry they just don't compare.
Also, you should understand that non muslim women are not required to cover their hair in KSA.

The regular police are there to protect citizens from real dangers.

Layla said...

Why does what my friend does interest you so much? She is not going against any rules fyi.

Fist you complain about me taking the pic then you complain I didn't do anything or record it.

what are you doing to bring about change?

I'm blogging, initiating conversation, recording what happens, defending my friends if there is a chance/need, that's at least doing something and better than accusing a person of setting there friends up for their own benefit.

I'm on holiday and don't have time to respond in depth to to all comments now, but I don't see much to say to you with this type of attitude anyways.

Layla said...

I don't understand "it seems you don't post the ones you don't like anyways" how would you even know :)
I post a lot of comments I don't agree with and only leave out the hateful ones. Sometimes I don't see a point of responding to everything because I see no use.
Right now I'm on holiday in Finland and don't even have internet connection most of the time at our summer cottage.

Affinity for Modesty said...

I find it odd that such naively and narrow minded ness still exist in this day and age of global community. To assume or indicate a country as being unsafe just due to its low share of crime rate is bewildering. The last time I checked, serial killers are uncommon in Saudi and other Muslim countries. However, I have read of many many many cases in USA and other western countries of serial killers, serial rapists, serial sex offenders, serial bank frauds etc.

Anonymous said...

ربة مذزل Please direct other Saudis to this blog. I feel that way there'll be a more fair and balanced discussion. They (citizens) can give their own first hand account of their country. Insha Allaah

Anonymous said...

@Charlie You probably mean well with your comments, but Layla feeds her blog off of such statements. You and your comments will end up in her "Hall of Shame" as disrespectful venemous comments. You'll be put on display as a hateful Muslim. She say you type gives "good Muslims" a bad name, etc.

But that's only if she allows your post to remain. She reserves that right and she uses it as she sees fit.

Anonymous said...

Since Laylah is "on holiday in Finland" she'll allow us to have a free and spirited conversation without the "approval" of comments (that was enlisted after being blasted about some of her posts). Laylah deserves a vacation from the chaos, wouldn't you agree?

@Faisal Haji-"know that Allah is the ONLY authority that can pass judgement" There is some validaty to your statement. Yes, Allaah is the "ONLY" authority to pass judgement, but he has also delegated His authority. We are allowed to pass judgement, but "ONLY" by Allaah's legistation. Proof;

Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allaah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous. 4:105

He (Allaah) goes further by saying, "...and whoever did not judge by what Allaah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers." 5:44

"there's corruption in every land, whether it was Meca or Tel Aviv...these things are normal" I beg to differ with your comment.

Allaah say, "And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allaah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

When people make statements without presenting proof indicates a lack of sincerity. Your statements about our dear Mother Khadijah (may Allaah be pleased with her) were presented without facts. You should thread lightly with such comments, because this can be slandering a righteous woman.

@I have personal experience with regards to you removing comments that disagreed with you without being disrespectful. Those comments were ayaat from Qu'ran as a reply to another person comments. I purposely make it my business to not post or comment in a disrespectful way to you or any other poster, but nevertheless, you've removed those responses.

Not all post warrant a comment from you. Like you said, " Sometimes I don't see a point of responding to everything because I see no use." That's fine and you have that right, but to mute other voice out of disagreement is not fair and just.

Enjoy your holiday, but in the meantime, why not let the conversation flow? Otherwise, why not change the title from Blue Abaya to My Opinion Blog. :D

Anonymous said...

Hello Laylah

Hope you're enjoying your much deserved vacation. It's something you've mentioned several time. I loved the article you wrote about your families vacation spot.

Btw, did any of the people in the photo sign a waiver granting you permission to take their picture and post it on your blog? I know how big you are on people just snapping photos of a person (i.e. your daughter) without asking for permission. That would be very hypercritical, right?

No disrespect intended.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Couple things. First on your points of serial rapist, sexual harassers etc. You will not find much data in Saudi or most muslim countries as this is often times considered the victims fault so the victim will rarely report it as she often finds herself in jail, harassed by society or worse. In other words the serial rapists issue is there but no one will come forward due to the shame. I am sure that if I dig I will find a large number of serial murders. Often times the offender's family in your country supplies blood money to the victim's family to save the murderer. Next, the US has crimes that Saudi muslim don't deem a crime such as a husband raping his wife.

Then let's take into account that the US population is about 12 times the size of Saudi. It also has far more transparency of crimes than does Saudi and it encourages people to report crimes to include men making statements against women's dresswear in order to ridicule her or anything else as it is a form of sexual harassment. In other words had someone conducted themselves like the Hai'a police they would be charged with a crime and jailed for harassment. Should a security officer/hai'a police hit someone for failure to adhere to a religious edict they would go to jail and be charged with a Hate crime.

In other words, things that are acceptable in Saudi and some middle eastern countries are a crime in the US as they are deemed to be battery, assault, sexual or non-sexual harassment, and even traffic laws are considered to be crimes in which people who break them depending on the level of severity go to jail.

Next,the USA of all the western countries is the most religious countries among almost all western countries. Studies have found the less religous and more secular the less crime there is as religion advocates crimes against women (beating) or harassing them, child abuse, racism, homophobia resulting in harassment or death, etc. Interesting that when religion goes up so to do these type of abuses. The United States crimes rates have been going done. Interesting so has the belief in religion. I see a correlation.

راوية said...

Already did. Many of the commenters are Saudi actually. I have blogged about blueabaya and tweeted. Many Saudis enjoy this blog but while they can read and understand, writing and discussing topics can be very challenging in English.

Mrs Gebu said...

Agreed... I always heard all kind of bad stories about KSA or even other Muslim countries, and I think it will scares people away. However, this is not true at all, I'm a a Muslim from Asian country and I have been to KSA and other Arab countries, I never encounter any problems. I stayed in Western country for a few years too, and guess what?... I felt a lot safer in the Arab countries. Judging Muslims like this is so unfair.

Anonymous said...

Mashallah anon finally!!!! your response to Mr Faisal Haji was precise! What he dose not realise is that when he was attending those parties in the kingdom, thats exactly the reason to have there should be muttawa.
Also Please don't ever put Mecca and Tel aviv in the same sentence and we all know is a holy city and the other is SinCity.
"As a Muslim, you should be aware of those by yourself and know that Allah is the ONLY authority that can pass judgement.".its so convenient when muslims want to play this card and it is true to a point, yet if we turn to what is happening to syria at the hands of basher al assad, should we just leave it to Allah to judge and sit on our hands while our muslim brothers and sisters are being slaughtered...NO in this case were are commanded to do something about it.

Anonymous said...

Wait add to that huge amount of rapes/sexual assault happening in US military and woman cannot say a word..yet american women are all "free" right?
What about the recent counts of cannibalism? Aww but no one wants to pay attention to that.
Im guessing this BIGSTICK! is one of those people who has never stepped foot inside of saudi yet thinks he knows it all.

Anonymous said...

Non muslims women should not be living in large amounts in saudi arabia so i hope the muttawa crack down on them more so that they ship out or respect the laws of the land. Those 3 saudi woman had to get out of france for wearing niqab..and thats the law of the land in france so they did..yet when saudi wants some woman to cover her hair a little its such a huge issue and its considered to be a violation.

Nauman Khan said...

@ Farah and Laylah, thats what i tried to explain, we have to open our minds to see things in a bigger prospective, not just from other own prospects.

@Farah, If you have not seen these incidences then its your lack of exposure, 1sty Mutawas dosn't run after anyone without any reason, there is always a reason, either small or large, 2ndly you and I are not the bench marks for defining the size of the mistake, a mistake we consider small might be bigger for them, again we are not in the authority to make laws that how one should be taught or not, like in school or college, u couldn't ask the teacher that this particular chapter is useless for u so just leave teaching it. Think from their angle, they believe in what they are doing and they are just performing their duty, they are not doing it to annoy people, this is not their intentions. As i said before, don't do any mistake and they wont catch u, simple is that, applicable on all the law enforcement authorities in the world.
Agreed to u that we might feel humiliated but we have 2 realize that still the initiation was done by us, we did the mistake.

you can't c the similarity coz as i said u believe in one type of police that they are there for protection and u don't believe in the other police and neither on the protection they are working on. In Islam danger is Satan, Satan can divert people for thief, robbery, murder (which u think are real dangers) (regular police's work) and Satan can also divert people for sins like showing those parts of their body to others which they are not allowed, talking/meeting people they are not allowed to, leaving salah etc etc (some of these sins hav bigger grade in islam then "the real" dangers mentioned above) some of the references are already given below

So again, the only problem here is that we are not able to think from Mutawa's angle and also from Islamic angle, we are thinking about the lives we have been spending in our countries and the lives we have seen spent by our forefathers and its really difficult for us to accept that we might have been wrong

We can't mold Islam according to our likings, we have to mold ourselves according to Islam weather we like it or not.

Anonymous said...

Saudi Arabia is a religious islamic country, but it should be the right of each woman to cover up as she wants. Anyway, the faith for God is inside the heart and not in the manner you cover your body. More the religious police will be annoying ladies, more that ladies will hate to add cover on their bodies. So, the religious police are wrong when they try to force women..!!

Anonymous said...

Saudi Arabia is a religious islamic country, but it should be the right of each woman to cover up as she wants without problems from religious police. Anyway Islam is in your heart, not in the manner you cover up

Anonymous said...

Saudi Arabia is a religious islamic country, but it should be the right of each woman to cover up as she wants without problems from religious police. Anyway Islam is in your heart, not in the manner you cover up

Affinity for Modesty said... amazingly,i see no correlation. I see only improvement in stricter policies and technology.

Affinity for Modesty said...

I have presented my comment based on clear cut facts, yours however were merely out of speculation for example "I am sure that if I dig I will find a large number of serial murders". I assure you bigstick, crimes are reported pretty much the same as they are in the USA, fact is not always nice to read.

Now the last part of your speculation can be toppled but this study

A clip from the study
The professor added: 'Supernatural punishment across nations seems to predict lower crime rates.
'At this stage, we can only speculate about mechanisms, but it's possible that people who don't believe in the possibility of punishment in the afterlife feel like they can get away with unethical behavior.
'There is less of a divine deterrent.'

Anonymous said...

Bigstick, "interesting" indeed...

"You will not find much data...often times considered the victim's fault?" - interesting, know that for certain do you? I'm sure you know hundreds of thousands of victims who failed to come forward for fear of getting punished themselves. Did they all directly tell you that themselves did they???! Where's your evidence?


" has the belief in the Religion"- err, NO CORRELATION whatsoever matie! I fail to see how a so-called "decline" in crime is in any way, shape or form linked to a decrease in religious membership. After 9/11 there was a staggering increase in Muslim converts, according to CNN 1.5 million US Citizens converted to Islam; measured by the numbers who flocked to the mosques to take their shahadas(profession of faith). Whilst on the other hand a decrease in the belief in a religion- how is this even quantifiable? It's not like people can actually register themselves OUT of a religion?

If anything, logic says that with Religion comes Ethics and Moral Obligations, and when people follow the Religion there is no reason why the whole society cannot prosper and thrive. It is only when Religion is mixed with culture and what is socially acceptable that the Religious teachings take a back seat, hence an individual's nafs (ego/pride) takes over- even though that individual may be Muslim, Christian or whatever.

Please don't just make sweeping statements, at least back them up with RELIABLE evidence.

Question: Before committing a sin, every one of us has this initial instinctive feeling that 'THIS ACTION IS WRONG', some take this on and choose not to go ahead with the sin, whilst others ignore this feeling and commits that sin. Ever wonder where this initial feeling comes from?


Anonymous said...

I am Muslima born & bread & everyone in the Huma knows that certain Saudi laws are NOT based on Islam @ all. Hate hypocrisy. All you have to do is go to Bahrein on weekends or some other countries & see how some Saudis behave outside their country. Give us a break with your holier than thou attitude, ok? We all know why most people put put with Saudi.
Non Muslims are NOT required to cover their hair in Saudi!

Layla said...

I checked and it looks like it's mostly the same person posting anonymously :)Not the first time that happens.

Layla said...

I agree it's in the heart! Also very true that the more they annoy these ladies, the less they will want to cover, and it's actually having the opposite affect.

Layla said...

Nope nobody signed a waiver :) I am wondering where you got this impression anyways.

Layla said...

He was wearing some sort of badge and the place is right next to the CPVPV building so they are very common around the area :)

Layla said... know what my friend actually left on final exit. She liked many things in Saudi like the nice friendly Saudis, but had too many bad experiences with rude people like she said, enough is enough and left.

Layla said...

Whyhitawoman-I've personally never heard anything like this happening in Saudi but not saying this couldn't happen there or anywhere else in the world. Were these cases in Riyadh and where exactly were they walking? It's so rare for people here to walk to work, what workplace is this?

Sounds very strange and sorry to hear this happened!

Layla said...

I believe my daughter can grow wings wherever she is and I will do everything I can to make her believe in herself and that she can do anything she wants in life :)

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Apparently people who don't believe commit far less crime.

Next, the US is an extremely religious country with numerous extremist factions most due to children being brought up and fed supernatural beliefs. It is amazing how many people followed Jerry Farwell and his brand of christian hate. So consider the source in the US.

However there is a growing faction within the US that are becoming less religous or outright atheists.

Make no mistake there are communities here in the USA that are extremely Religous who will protect a male and shame the women. It is also generally the same type of community that will judge a wrapper(clothing), preach hate, discrimination and abuse. Abrahamic religions are exceptionally good at this along with their minons. Just look at what the Catholic Church does with it's flock particular boys. Of course Saudi Arabia is well known for it's like of small children as well. All sanctioned or hidden by the most devoted religious. There are religous police in every religion just some are more visible than others and no matter what it is a human violation and a generator of backwardness, discrimination, abuse, and hate.

The difference is, is that in the USA. I can make statements that the concept of manmade political control doctrine God is evil. Ask yourself how many god/allah sanction murders have there been? Ask yourself how many have been murder in the name of God/Allah. Ask the same question of Slavery or rape or abuse.

Now ask yourself how many murders, rapes, slavery, and abuse has been done in the name of Satan or the devil?

Call me silly but I think there is something far more sinister than the "devil."

How many times have we heard in the name of God before the slaughter or allahu akbar just before the trigger pull or destruction of church or ethnic/cultural cleansing.

Here is an interesting website on divorce and the religious as well. Please make notes on the bible belt, and all those pious religious.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, interesting discussion around this topic. I don't want to argue as I think it's pointless, but I want to say that I do support the concept of Hai'a because advising and reminding people of their duty as Muslims, or encouraging non-Muslims to follow certain guidelines for the sake of the good of the people as a whole, is the best thing and is necessary in Islam.

That being said, I have never been to Saudi (inshaAllah one day I will be able to go!), and as such I have never encountered any hai'a or mutawwa. From what I have heard there is both good and bad, so perhaps a reform would be necessary. But that would be a reform, not abolishment. If people don't like being reminded to pray, or to cover, then that's their problem, because it is a Muslim country after all and the majority of people do want it.

Affinity for Modesty said...

Bigstick,i think you fit the bill of what David here is describing

By the way,what you are describing are crimes and injustices perpetuated by extremists. Sadly,despite your cohort,you display a very ugly face of extremism when dealing with religion. I think you are very hypocritical in that sense. A true minion of Richard Dawkin who encourages his followers to show contempt and ridicule people who believe in God. I assure you that i am very much aware of how 'delightful' an atheist utopia would be like,refer to State Atheism, the Soviet Union, Atheist State of Albania etc. You are an extremist and you thrive on everything in the extreme point be it religion or otherwise and you continue your extremism without attempting to embrace moderation that exists and thrives in the very subject you hate-Islam.

Affinity for Modesty said...

And to bring a resource from a pro atheist website to back up your claims,come on,what do you expect ?i did provide resource from an atheist website.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

I have others that are not atheist backed want them. Next you really need to read about bolshevism and how it was turned into a type of theology.

In addition, pointing out issues and disagreement is not extremism. It is called freedom of expression, freedom of speech and critical thinking.

Declaring in the name of god and allah is great before blowing something up is extremism or throwing acid in women's faces for not wearing appropriate attire or making states to throw acid in a female representative's face for stating something you don't want to hear (such as is the case here by a christian republican) is considered extremist. Of course Saudi Arabia is currently hanging witches/warlocks - which is an example of extremism and quite frankly delusion along with no common sense etc.

I have yet found any documented issue where any which create problems for anyone. However, I have found a ton of stuff the God/Allah has done that has cause misery.

Pointing out the fallacy, contradictions, and what the actually text states is not extremism only fact. Then pointing out history which shows the plethora of evidence on what religion has cause, is causing and will continue to cause is still fact.

Affinity for Modesty said...

Bigstick, all that you have stated were crimes perpetuated by extremists so your whole view of Islam is the view of an extremist. Now, my question to you is : Could you provide me evidence from the Quran (this is the Islamic guidance) where does it allow throwing of acid, blowing oneself up, killing so called infidels and other tragedies you mentioned? I need non misquoted verses. Please answer this one question without giving me actions done by extremists because in all honesty, extremists are their own kind and there are even atheists who go to the extremes like Jeffrey Dahmer (serial killer and cannibalist), Timothy McVeigh (bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City), Ted Kaczynski (sent bombs through the mail to various people he disliked).

My other question is how does the citizenry fare when atheists hold the reins of power and have at their disposal all the fire-power of the state? Based on history, not good!

Unknown said...

My knowledge of Umm Al Mo'meneen Khadeeja comes from the mosque circle that I used to attend when I was a teen. But I'm not sure as of what point you disagree on, is the that she was a businesswoman or that our prophet was an employed by her?

"She heard the Prophet's fair dealings and how he was acclaimed to be al-Ameen (the trustworthy) amongst the people, and so she asked if he could accompany her merchandise to its various destinations - he agreed." -

Regarding the two ayas I believe that 5:14 is about the Jews concealing the truth of the Torah (I got these english verses from the arabic/english quran that I found in the University's mosque

{Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the Prophets who surrendered unto Allah judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests judged by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.}

and the other is correctly quoted, but Allah asks for us to be judged by the Holy Book (Shria), but I do believe that "few" cultural rules are passed as a shria law and my issue is with those specifics and not the true shria

My brother/sister in Islam ... if you believe that there is no black seed in Meca or any other land on this earth, you are in denial. There is always a bad seed somewhere, and that is my point. There were the "faseqoon" during the prophet's era and they still exist today. This is all what I meant by the statement that I made in regards with corruption.
"Mashallah anon finally!!!! your response to Mr Faisal Haji was precise!"

I am not here to force my comment on you nor I am here to prove that I am right and you are wrong. This is my opinion and that's all to it. There are many interpretation of the quran and the sharia. You can't prove that one idea is wrong or right. However, our musftees use "ijtihad" to deliver what they think might be the "MOST" right in a given situation. I also never mentioned that what hai'a is done is wrong. But it is only my personal opinion and if you have a hard time reading an opinion, that's not my issue or problem. But please don't take it as a mission to forcibly falsify someone.

Layla ... enjoy Finland and sorry to mess up your comments board again

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar: By all means provide the history of atheists reign that which is not a quasi political/religious reign that you want to pin on the lack of a believe in a god or currently known theology.

Then I have to wonder why if you are not an extremist does this bother you and why are you not go after the extremist faction that is supposedly altering your belief in your version of made up contradictory cherry picking theology.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

I didn't have time earlier to address everything but here are the list of individual's religious affiliation. Dahmer - Christian, Kaczynski - Thought to be atheist by some others Catholic. McVeigh - Christian. Not one of these individuals did what they did to uphold a religious belief or non-belief. It was not not in the name of XXXX religion. They just happen to be crazy nut jobs. However, I can provide numerous examples of religious who let their children die in the name of God/Allah or abuse their spouse in the name of God/Allah or kill homosexuals in the name of God/Allah or kill witches/warlocks in the name of God/Allah or kill the heretic in the name of God/Allah or kill the blasphemer in the name of God/Allah or let women die in child birth in the name of God or oh heck by now you should have gotten it.

Here are some websites talking about the religion of the INDIVIDUALS you listed who didn't kill in their God/Religion.

NOW here are GROUPS listed as terrorist organizations who kill in the name of ISLAM:

Here is a some more information on the religious terrorist groups.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Let me give you a different website as well. One that has a better path to ijtihad of your religion.

I read many different views from Muslims. Some extreme some not so. The one's who take the greatest offense at pointing out the absurdity are generally the extremist who will protect their concepts of Islam by the cost of another's dignity, blood, expression, freedom or expression. You may have the right to your belief but you have no rights not to be offended as your belief does not trump mine or another's nor should it condone the killing of people for witchcraft or force children back into burning schools to die.

If you cannot understand that there is an tremendous failing in how Islam is being presented and practiced as evident by the extremism currently occurring within muslim countries but also from the backlash from other countries then you have problems dealing with facts and reality.

Affinity for Modesty said...

As expected,you hv avoided my first question. I presume you were unable to find a single verse to proof your false allegations. About the last part of your comment,how do you know what i do in my spare time?how are you certain that i do not actively reject those extremists?you are full of speculations,aren't u?and when it comes to cherry picking,you do it so well to suit your atheist manifesto.

Affinity for Modesty said...

I shall answer your argument by this article by Dinesh D'Souza.

First, several atheists contended that you cannot really compare the crimes of Christian regimes of the past to those of atheist regimes of the twentieth century.

A representative of the American Humanist Association noted that population levels were much lower during the Inquisition than, say, the period of Stalin’s or Mao’s purges. This was a point I made in my original article. But our humanist friend also noted that the technology of homicide is much more lethal in an era of weapons of mass destruction. Never mind that Stalin and Mao didn’t use any of those weapons. They relied on primitive techniques of murder, such as forced relocation, forced labor, and forced starvation. Besides, the caveats of our humanist colleague hardly change the overall calculus. The best estimates are that between 5,000 and 10,000 were killed in the Spanish Inquisition. That’s compared with 100 million who were killed in the atheist purges of the twentieth century. The 100 million is actually a low figure, since it uses very modest estimates for how many people Stalin and Mao killed, and it leaves out a host of lesser atheist tyrants such as Pol Pot and Enver Hoxha. Even so, using this conservative estimate, a quick calculation reveals that atheist regimes killed ten thousand times more people in the space of a few decades than the Spanish Inquisition managed to kill over a period of more than two centuries.

Now Bigstick,if that isn't terrorism,i dont know what is.

Affinity for Modesty said...

Second, several atheist writers argued that Stalin and Mao’s crimes could not be blamed on atheism since atheism is not really a belief, it is really an absence of belief.

As one writer put it, “Leaders such as Stalin and Mao persecuted religious groups, not in a bid to expand atheism, but as a way of focusing people’s hatred on those groups to consolidate their own power.” Of course I agree that murderous regimes, whether Christian or atheist, are generally seeking to strengthen their position. But if Christian regimes are held responsible for their crimes committed in the name of Christianity, then atheist regimes should be held accountable for their crimes committed in the name of atheism. And who can deny that Stalin and Mao, not to mention Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic? Who can dispute that they did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a “new man” and a religion-free utopia? These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideological inspiration, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.

Now Bigstick,denying the fact that these atheist terrorists were driven by their idea of ak atheist utopia is just simply -denial on your part.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Now on a sort of different topic. Why don't you and Laylah post something on this matter and you can use the posters at the bottom of the article.

I believe this article is exceptionally helpful to children everywhere.

Affinity for Modesty said...

Third, many atheists angrily insisted that Hitler was not an atheist, indeed he was a lifelong Christian! (You learn something new every day.)

Here I discovered that the atheists were rummaging through various atheist websites that seem to have done their homework on Hitler. One letter noted that Hitler was “raised as a Roman Catholic.” Another quoted Hitler saying in a speech during the early 1930s that he was “doing the Lord’s work.” Another provided an excerpt of one of Hitler’s speeches praising Christ as a valiant opponent of the Jews. The atheist message was that Hitler was not one of them, he was one of us.

The poverty of the atheist argument becomes clear with a bit of examination. What does it prove to say that Hitler was raised Catholic? Stalin was raised in the Orthodox Church. Mao was raised as a Buddhist. Lots of people repudiate their religious upbringing. Hitler vehemently rejected the traditional Christianity in which he was raised. During the period of his ascent to power, he needed the support of the German people — mostly Christian, mostly Lutheran —and he occasionally used boilerplate rhetoric such as “I am doing the Lord’s work” to try and secure this. This rhetoric, it should be noted, is a commonplace rhetorical device among atheist writers. Nietzsche, for instance, regularly compared himself to Jesus, even titling one of his books Ecce Homo (“behold the man,” a biblical reference to Christ). But no intelligent reader of Nietzsche can doubt that he was a rabid atheist, as was Hitler. One should not confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Not surprisingly, Hitler invoked Christ’s death at the hands of the Jews in order to solicit Christian support for his (secular and racial, not religious) anti-Semitic agenda.

Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, however, they denounced Christianity and launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken traditional Christianity. Since 1937 the policies of Hitler’s government became openly and increasingly anti-religious. In particular, they repudiated what they perceived as the Christian values of equality, compassion and weakness and extolled the atheist notions of the Nietzschean superman and a new society based on the “will to power.” Hitler’s leading advisers, such as Goebbels, Heydrich and Bormann, were atheists who were savagely hostile to religion. Several of his associates reported that the Fuhrer’s personal views were deeply anti-Christian. Again, Hitler’s hostility to religion in general, and Christianity in particular, were not incidental to the violence that characterized his regime. They were part of the Nazi ideology — a secular ideology that deified race over creed — and they helped to justify the horrors of extermination and holocaust. Like Stalin and Mao, Hitler illustrates the point made by both Dostoyevsky and earlier John Locke: when God is excluded, then it is not surprising when morality itself is sacrificed in the process and chaos and horror is unleashed on the world. So it has been in our time, and all the elaborate evasions produced by today’s atheists cannot change what their anti-religious kinsmen did, cannot change the grim facts of history.

You yourself was born n raised as a Christian but chose to abandon religion,Bigstick. It's silly to cherry pick whose atheist on your benefit. Dahmer and the rest i mentioned were atheists. Check this pro atheist website and this

I do agree to some extent on your arguements that there are Muslims who inflict pain in the community but that is in no way what Islam teaches,contrary to your skewed understanding.just like there are atheist criminals,there are Muslims who commit injustice. I still need you to answer my question as to where in the Qur'an does it allow injustice,acid throwing,killing,torture.

Coolred38 said...

Umm Gamar, It matters little if those sort of things are actually written in the quran when they are accepted practices among muslim communities and govts. Many many muslims will claim they are not islamic practices but then fail to do anything to stop them. I don't see saudi as a religious is a dictatorship that subdues its population through terror and fear of jail or worse. How is that religious in anyway? According to Islam, a leader of a country should be chosen by the people. No dictators, no military take overs, no kings that pass on to their sons leader that forces himself on his people whether they like him or not (and imagine that just about every single 'islamic" country has this very sort of leadership).So..since its leadership is NOT islamic, or even just, why do muslims tolerate it? You and so many others claim its not islamic...yet do nothing to change it. By remaining silent you are accepting what they practice...but then get upset when someone points out those disgusting practices. The haya are a joke. A bunch of bearded barely educated men far too interested in what women are doing and feel the need to police every thing women do, and sometimes men as well...yet see no need to police themselves. How hypocritical is that? And here you are using arguments that "atheists do it too"...the common fall back when muslims are accused of anything. But isn't saudi supposed to be better? Isn't it the center of islam, the two holy mosques, land of the prophet, you know...where REAL islam got started and is practiced? Saudis stand on these self proclaimed laurels as if it makes them and the land they live on somehow sacred and untouchable. Now what other people have that same belief and yet are hated for exactly that? Yes, there is not a corner of the world in which evil is not practiced...but there is NO other place on this planet that has such a superior holier than thou attitude as the in Saudi Arabia. Our women are taken care of as queens...while being treated as children. Foreigners are treated like slaves. Rediculous fatwas are given out daily, witches are killed, and among all this shitty behavior there is this attitude that this country is holy, moral, blessed, and simply better than anywhere else. If you don't like it then leave. The answer to everything. We don't have to change a just need to pack and leave...and the funny thing is, your own women are not allowed to just pack and leave if THEY don't like it. They need a man's permission. How freaking nice...and how can you (any you) be so damn proud of such a system...and call it a religious country to boot?

Affinity for Modesty said...

But isn't saudi supposed to be better?
Coolred, why would you assume i accept and am proud of everything KSA does? Ohh you made a grave error judging me there for i know Saudi needs reform in many areas to return back to the Islam our Prophet taught. I defend Islam, not tribes or a country. A huge difference. Second, I intend to show that Atheism isn't as rosy as Bigstick wants us to believe.

Bigstick, don't tell me about Christianity as to justify your comment as I don't profess to it. Also, I didn't ask what certain Muslim practice about honor killing etc. I ask evidence from the Quran.

About circumcision, next you will be telling me Muslims shouldn't cut their hair or take medicine to cure disease or cut off extra limbs from birth defect or cut nails even.

We believe what Allah commanded is beneficial for us. Circumcision benefit evidence

• The presence of a prepuce is likely to result in greater microtrauma during sexual intercourse, thereby permitting an entry point into the bloodstream for infectious agents.

• The warm, moist mucosal environment under the foreskin favours growth of micro-organisms (discussed in detail later). The preputial sac has even been referred to by Dr Gerald Weiss, an American surgeon, as a 'cesspool for infection' [Weiss, 1997], as its unfortunate anatomy wrapped around the end of the penis results in the accumulation of secretions, excretions (urine), dead cells and growths of bacteria as referred to above. Parents are told not to retract the foreskin of male infants, which makes cleaning difficult. Even if optimal cleansing is performed there is no evidence that it confers protection [Wiswell, 1997a; Wiswell, 1997b]. Rather, the foreskin tends to trap and transmit micro-organisms, both to the man himself, and his sexual partners.

As Muslims, we have faith in Allah, not other Muslims or other people's faux pas.
What bothers me is, why are you atheist so keen to convert us on a Muslimah blog at that? I have never seen Muslims going haywire on an atheist's website.

Affinity for Modesty said...

Tell me Bigstick,since you are against circumcision for newborn males on the basis of being perfectly formed (true Allah is the perfect Creator) then are you also against many other procedures for newborns?

Vitamin K-This is usually an injection given after the birth. Your baby isn't born with intact clotting factors. Hepatitis Vaccine to lower hepatitis risks, umbilical cord clamping, and giving her a BATH. Since the argument perfection of creation is in order.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Apparently you agree that I have covered the rest of your versions that fit the atrocities mentioned with the exception of acid in women's face.

I have to admit I am not aware of a specific mentioning of acid but does it really matter if women can be killed based upon some perceived dishonor alone.

I am always amazed by the fact that religious people try so hard to make Hitler an atheist particular since he come out and stated that atheists were to be despised. Have you ever looked at just how many Christians were in Germany during WWII timeframe? I would say it was close to 99 percent. I will get back with you on some more items. Did you read the last post from me? I believe it to be a worthy cause.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Here is another excellent website, that will address your concerns on atheism.

Please read the comments especially the one about red-herring.

Also let me know if you cannot access this and I will try to paraphase it.

I am trying to keep it short as Laylah doesn't need a book.


Affinity for Modesty said...

You didn't answer my question but instead chose to cherry pick a website that CLEARLY hates and lies about Islam to justify your malicious accusations. Why do you always choose website that are either pro atheist or anti Islam to promote your agenda? None of those verses support injustices as you and the website you presented wishes to be Islam. example is the verse "Slay the disbelievers wherever ye find them,”. you love history so please look up properly on that historical context. It was about war. Have you seen soldiers hugging their enemies during battle? I haven't.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

I can't post under the comment that you posted. So, I have to post at the bottom. However I can ask the same for you. Why do you cherry pick aspects of the Koran/Hadith sites for your benefit but leave out the rest and then why do you use a non-belief in a fairytale as a political quasi religious doctrine(This is separate) and then why do you cherry pick against atheists? Riddle me this why don't you. Atheist do not subscribe to being either Communist or Bolshevick. These can both be consider quasi-religious/political dogma.

Please read The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism by Betrand Russell.

The religious books are nothing but fictional as far as I am concerned but I will expand upon that in my next post on the history of the compilation of the book. I will also expand upon the hadith/koran fairytale as well since you apparently need a book.

I am currently limited on my time. I will write up a very nice con to your view. Note to Laylah - stop laughing, I can just hear it now.

By the way, why do you feel you have the right to mutaliate a child's body prior to him/her understanding what that might entail and the possible issues to include sexual dyfunction, infection, death, and the list goes on when all you have to do is show the child how to properly clean him/herself to avoid infections?

Next why do you compare a male's penis to an defect, disease or infection? It is a penis which works properly as it is suppose to, same with girls and their clitoris. They are suppose to be that way. It is like having a child born with a perfectly good hand and the proper number of fingers but you cut off all of the finger tips because it might get dirty under the nail causing an infection either under the nail or where you use the nail.

Affinity for Modesty said...

One of the most seriously misunderstood aspects of Islam is it's position on fighting.This stems both from a widespread, general ignorance of Islam and a tendency to view the violent behavior of groups and individuals with only nominal ties to Islam as representative of Islam.For Muslims,the Qur'an contains God's own words and is not the work of inspired men.It is therefore,the ultimate authority which defines the beliefs and practices of Islam. Often, people take verses,or parts of verses from the Qur'an,ignoring context and related verses,to make Islam appear warlike and violent,or to justify hostility and aggression.But a careful examination of the Qur'an yields a very different view. The word jihaad is familiar to most Americans and seems to evoke images of wild eyed, fanatics slaughtering infidels in a holy war.But what is the Qur'anic concept of jihaad and how does it relate to war and fighting? There is no concept of holy war (al-Harb almuqaddas) in the Qur'an. The noun jihaad occurs 4 times in the Qur'an. The verb jaahada (to struggle, strive) in various forms appears 29 times.None of these refers directly to fighting, let alone specifically to military action. In 14 of the 29 places the verb jaahada appears in the Qur'an, striving in the cause of God is used in very a very general context as a quality of those who believe. Many of these verses have nearly identical wording:

alatheena amanuu wa haajaruu wa jaahaduu fi sabeelallah bi amwalihim wa anfusihim. [those who believe and emigrate and strive in the cause of God with their wealth and their selves] (2:218; 3:142; 5:57; 8:72,74,75; 9:16,20,44,88; 16:110; 29:6,69; 49:15).

Two other instances tell how hypocrites hate to strive in God's cause and try to avoid it (9:81,86). Where the Qur'an specifically commands striving, there is no reference to warfare (5:38, 9:41,73, 22:78, 25:52, 66:9).

Verses 29:8 and 31:15 give believers permission to disobey parents who strive (jaahadaa) to make them associate partners with God. Even under such circumstances the believer is ordered to be considerate and just toward the parents.

We learn from the Qur'an that believers must be willing to exert great efforts in the cause of God, using our wealth and ourselves. These efforts (jihaad) may, or may not include fighting (qitaal). Fighting is called for only under certain circumstances and then, is strictly regulated in the Qur'an.
from Struggle and Fighting in the Qur'an
Aisha Y. Musa

Affinity for Modesty said...

for the complete version of this Quranic study refer to

Laylah, I apologize for flooding your comment section with this long discussion but as a Muslim, I felt compelled to give a correct and fair understanding of our religion when it is hurled with nasty accusations that has no basis. Especially since your blog is famous mashallah and frequented by thousands who might come out with the impression that we Muslims are a bunch of murderous evil hate-mongers who have nothing better to do than to visit the acid shops,mutilating innocents and slaying our non Muslim neighbors (that's strange since I live in an expatriate neighborhood who are mostly Westerners, Arabs and Chinese and the horrors we actually smile and Salam each other). We are not, honest, Bigstick. I am far from an extremist as this is perhaps the first time I had to talk and talk what is Islam, since you arrived. I am far from overtly religious as you might think. I like music, shopping, extravagance, food, movies, children, animals, technologies, science, flowers just as you might like, different taste maybe but similar still. Maybe instead of focusing on crazy men splashing acids, why not focus on Muslims who eat, drink and merry just like the rest of the world.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Since you want to go on the fighting "jihad" issue; here are a few websites. Again I have to post at the bottom as I cannot post on the reply button.

Oh, I will be working on the book to provide to you. I think I will do a link or Laylah will force me to 1000 words or less.

bigstick1 said...

Umm Gamar:

Here is an interesting youtube as well and historical in nature.

Snow said...

pls forgive me if any, honestly i do not see why muslims should find the need to learn islam from non muslims. & non muslims who do not approve of islam, isn't it better that you stick to your own club or something. or do you love us or what.. aha...

bigstick1 said...


If religion ever was keep to an individual that would work but it never is, it is used to indoctrinate the young, force other to put up with it harry potter stance, forced on others who find it absurd, politicized, the list goes on. Religion is used to cause destruction, inequitity, discrimination, hatred, contempt, murder, torture, ect.

All of which is written and acceptable within the make believe harry potter texts. Therefore, there is no sticking to your own club unless every indiviual is given a choice on whether to believe it or not and that includes practicing it's tenents.

Next, if you are going to blog about something expect this otherwise don't be blogging at least in the public domain just stay in your domain and don't come out. If you do expect to be challenged, questioned, patted on the back, agreed with, disagreed with, etc.

Now what if a person who was born into a country such as Saudi didn't believe in harry potter stories then he/she is forced to adhere to the offensiveness of killing witches, putting up with hai'a and other religous edicts that are absurd such as women are awrah and are FORCED to wear a sex object "awrah" black bag.

Now when a person actually has a choice then it is different until then it is political force by the masses to include death, slavery, hate, subjugation, etc.

In any case forced belief is wrong and forced adherance is wrong. It is a human violation.

Anonymous said...

Bigstick is bigstupid.....
he thinks he knows all just like this ignorant layla
y did she marry a saudi at all
confused soul
bigbamboo lol

Anonymous said...

I dare u publish my comments
bigbamboo lol

Anonymous said...

Ok u have data?
Share with us u bigwhatever.
bigbamboo lol
i dont think this commment shud b censored confused layla

bigstick1 said...

Again I have to post to the bottom. Here is to the ANONYMOUS person who goes on about big bamboo

Now you can research your self but there is a ton of data that supports. I suggest you look it up.

Have a good day.

bigstick1 said...

Why not here is a few more site.

Quran Learning said...

I read you post about hijab, yeah muslim need hijab , especially a muslim woman need for hijab to cover it self, your blog is cover all muslims views.
quran learning

Anonymous said...

how can I contact you in private??? I need PLEASE to have answers to my questions...

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but mutawwas are not representatives of pure Islam. They mix in traditions and say it is Islam. Covering face for example is a TRADITION. "We have to mold ourselves to Islam" How about that incident where a mutawwa beat a child of Shia family? The child is 4 years old and had a fractured skull? Is that Islamic? What about crippled woman was forced to stand up and it was painful for her because "she was not performing her prayers properly". She is CRIPPLED so she could not do full sujuud. She was harassed by mutawwas for that. Is that Islamic? Do I need to see from mutawwa's perspective why he beat that child and harassed that crippled woman? If this is Islam I would NEVER, EVER, repeat NEVER convert to Islam. Luckily, I know it is not Islam, so really don't try to say mutawwas are the full, accurate and pure representation.

Anonymous said...

@Nauman Khan

Why they don't go and advise to those who beat their workers for example? Why they don't go to those to torture their maids and treat people like garbage if you don't come from a certain tribe? Instead they are busy with things like if you cover your face or not. There are BIGGER issues to deal with. Many unislamic things go on and yet mutawwas don't speak out against it as if "it is not our business"

In Islam you advice with rahma, graciously and politely. Harassing people is NOT one of the Islamic things to do.

Anonymous said...

I believe that the Hai'a is not really necessary. I would suggest they slowly shrink this force and gradually re-educate the departing members so that they can get new competitive jobs/position in the labour market.

That way they will not complain by suddenly loosing their salary and they can become useful members of society in other fields.